Yvette has some great comments, and I wanted to make them more visible and to be able to answer them with some Images. Can't do that in Comments:
Each of us needs to look at how WE want to handle each situation. I've shared my experience with Find-A-Grave.I'm planning on using the citation notes for personal use only, to contain a copy of the information I used. For example, if I create a citation of a Find a Grave memorial, I'll copy the text of the page into the citation note. That way I can always check back what information was there when I used the source. I do not like the Page Archive function as that still references resources on the original site that may not exist anymore when I need to recheck the information.
How I work with the Burial Fact
In that blog post, I Copy the memorial information into the Find-A-Grave Fact that I created. I have that FACT marked as Private, but I can always "Included Private Facts" in a report that I have. I found the the Citation Note is too hidden.Here is an example of what I would put into a Citation Note:
Quote:
Source Information:
Ancestry.com. Web: Kansas, Find A Grave Index, 1854-2011 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2012.
Original data: Find A Grave. Find A Grave. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi: accessed 23 February 2012.
Description:
All data in this third-party database was obtained from Find a Grave. Ancestry.com does not support or make corrections or changes to the original database.
EndQuote:
I can refer to this information, when creating my Citation for this specific example.
The Reference Note for this Citation is:
Quote:
Russ Worthington, "Find-A-Grave", database, Find A Grave (www.findagrave.com) Helen Adele Strode Entwistle (1894-1985 ) - Find A Grave Memorial# 50314294.
EndQuote:
The Citation Notes are accessed in the Sources Workspace, and access to that, when working with the Citation is right there.
The details from Find-A-Grave, in the Find-A-Grave Fact Note is:
Quote:
Find-A-Grave
Helen Adele Strode Entwisle
Birth: Jun. 24, 1894
Death: Apr. 14, 1985
Family links:
Spouse:
Thomas Lee Entwisle (1891 - 1973)
Inscription:
Helen Strode Entwisle - 1894 - 1985
Burial:
Birmingham-Lafayette Cemetery
West Chester
Chester County
Pennsylvania, USA
Created by: Russ Worthington
Record added: Mar 27, 2010
Find A Grave Memorial# 50314294
EndQuote:
I can control when and IF I want these notes printed, but I have easy access to this information on the People Workspace, Person View. The above information in to the right of the FACTs for this individual to make sure I have recorded what I wanted to.
So, the question becomes WHO is this information recorded on. Everyone, or one person.My real transcriptions are all in Dutch so they would not be very useful.
A translation of an actual transcription:
13 december 1653
Herman Stoffels and his wife Hilleken ten Borninckhave, Jan Carstkens Pleckpoel as husband and guardian of Martina Stoffels, Herman Stoffels and Jan Carstkens also on behalf of Hendersken Stoffels, their sister and sister-in-law, Berndt Eckerfelt and Derck Claessen as chosen and accepted guardians of Maria Janssen, widow of the late Berndt Stoffels and their children Grietken and Johan Stoffels, as heirs of the late Mechtelt Lammerts, widows of Stoffer Stoffelsen who declared for themselves, their wards
and heirs, that they have sold for a well paid sum of money for ever and irrevocably, to Margaretha Schmidts, widow of the late Herman Nachtegall and her heirs, their house as it is situated between the aforementioned buyer, Johan Corts and the late Jan an Basten's houses with all its old rights etc.
(BTW, this Hendersken Stoffels was the mistress of the famous Dutch painter Rembrandt van Rijn. Her brother Harmen, the first person in this document, is an ancestor of mine)
For me, I create a Citation for where this information came FROM, and put Citations on each person's name that is listed and any FACTS that I choose to record for the individual peopls.
For example:
By doing this, this becomes data entries in his TimeLine. His wife is listed, she will have a Citation for her Name and other facts from this newspaper article about her.
Normally, in this example, I would probably use Preferred Facts ONLY, but would include the Person Notes.
I use the Facts for features like TimeLine data, and more for my own information. When sharing, I would normally just use Preferred Facts.
You are right about copying the transcription 19 times.Since I'm working on a population reconstruction of the entire region, all 19 people mentioned in this transcription are in my database. I do not want to copy the transcription 19 times but I do want to be able to access it from all 19 people. And I don't have just the one document, I've got 50 years worth of transcribed records of this town and 50 years more in digital photographs still waiting to be transcribed.
A thought for you, as in my Civil War case, is to create an Unrelated Person for the Transcriptions, then use Facts and Citations for the people involved.
The 2nd American Civil War Blog Challenge - and FTM2012 Timelines
I created a Unrelated person, who is the Military Unit for my Great Grandfather.I have Property Facts, as my early Maryland Ancestors "named" their properties. Some of those properties were willed to the next generation or another family member.In reality, the text will be in an old form of the Dutch language that is not easy to read for a modern reader even if it's transcribed. Unlike English, the Dutch language has changed a lot since the 17th century. It's not quite as bad as reading Anglo-Saxon for a current English speaker but it's worse than Shakespeare.
In fact notes, I typically want to enter readable text that is fit to go into a report for general reading.
Based on your own advice elsewhere on this blog, I'm first thinking about a strategy on what I want my data to look like, so I haven't got a sale event yet. Maybe a 'property' event would be more appropriate, listing the fact that somebody owned property in a specific place at a specific moment in time. In this example, ideally I would like to create a property event that is shared between the children and grandchildren that are mentioned as heirs of the mother, because they are the joint owners in this sale.
Shared events only apply to two people, currently in Family Tree Maker. Their normal use is in the area of Marriages. In my case. the Property was owned by various member of the family, but not between Two People. Usually one person owned it, willed it to another or others, each then would have the Property Fact, and usually with Dates. So, that date ownership can been seen, if the dates were known and recorded.
Besides the Input and Output of what is recorded, I take into account where will I need it. Such as the Citation Notes. I need them with working with my Citation. Fact Notes, are nice to be available when working with Fact.
The Person Notes are the "stories".
Thank you for your comments.
_______________________________________________________________
Copyright © 2012 by H R Worthington
Thank you for your very extensive reply to my comment! It's inspiring to read how you use FTM.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
"For me, I create a Citation for where this information came FROM, and put Citations on each person's name that is listed and any FACTS that I choose to record for the individual people. " I think this is what I want to do as well.
Thanks also for your suggestion to create an unrelated person for a transcription. I don't think I want to do that though. I don't think it would solve my problem (having the transcription available from all 19 people without duplicating the information). It would also be very confusing for other people that use my family tree, as I have made my tree public on Ancestry.com.
Thank you for pointing me to option to view the citation notes in the Sources tab, I hadn't realized I could view them from these as well. It is more convenient than in the pop-up window you get in the person view. But I still wish it would be easier to spot which citations have notes.
These judicial records go back to the early 1500s, more than 100 years earlier than the earliest church records in the area. They are often all the information I have about people so they are what I have to base my estimated birth, marriage and death dates on. Documenting these estimates is vital for my research.
I think my strategy will be this:
* I will create a citation for each deed in the judicial records (like the 13 december 1653 example).
* I will link this citation to the name of each person mentioned in the transcription.
* I'll create individual or shared facts for all events in the transcription that are of interest to me. For example Property in 1653, Marriage before 1653, Death before 1653, Mentioned in 1653.
* I will include the transcription in the citation note so it will be available to me for each fact that I distill from it.
* Where necessary, I will include a description of the fact in the fact note. For example, in the property note I will describe it it's a purchase or sale and which property. This will use modern language and not the archaic transcription.
Any thoughts on this strategy are very welcome!
Yvette,
DeleteBefore you spend a lot of time putting that information into the Citation Notes, try it ONCE, then work with it. I think that you will find you have one or two mouse clicks to get at it. But try it first.
I just made another post, on Citing an Index, and I really showed how I use the Citation Note field.
Again, I think that you will find that the Citation Note field, for a transcription is one or more mouse clicks from where you will use the data in that Transcription.
Also, It's not clear to me, that the Shared Facts will work the way you think they work.
From the Help Menu:
The Facts tab in the Edit Relationship dialog box lets you view and edit the facts shared between two people in your tree, such as for a marriage or partnership
So, a Shared Fact is between two people to help define a relationship.
Russ
I did what you suggested an entered a document using my new strategy and I didn't like the way the transcription was hidden. Instead, I've decided to put the transcription in the 'citation text'. The help text in the box said 'Enter pertinent text from the source and/or an explanation of the relevance of the data to your research' and the F1-help text clarifies that this box is intended to be used for "The actual text from the source that pertains to the fact.". I've tried what happens when I paste the transcription there and I'm very happy with the results. I can easily check if there is a transcription from the People workspace / person view by hovering over the citation: the transcription will appear in the mouse-over tooltip. In the sources workspace the transcription is available directly in the citation text textbox without having to switch tabs. And the citation text is printed in reports if you include the sources. I'm liking this!
DeleteYvette,
DeleteVery good. Now, check out one more thing, BEFORE you make this "your way". Do a Report and include EndNotes. Or the Documented Events, or Bibliography REPORTS.
You may like them, which would be great. But check out the output of a report where you would include EndNotes.
Russ
Will do, thanks! I'll let you know how things turn out tomorrow, as it's midnight over here.
ReplyDeleteYvette,
DeletePlease let me know.
Good luck,
Russ
Hmm, the output has me stumped. I've created two new citations using the Abstract Online template (this most closely matches the fields I want to record for my source). One source is for a transcribed church book and one is for a transcribed judicial record like in the example I gave earlier. On both citations, I've included the date in the citation detail and the transcription in the citation text. So far, so good. But when I publish an individual report, the judicial record shows the date and transcription, like I would expect, while the church record only shows the bare source information without the information that's in the citation (date+transcription). I've got no idea what's going on and why FTM is chosing to show the data on one citation and not the other, when both are based on the same template.
DeleteYvette,
DeleteDid you put a Check Mark, in the Include Citation Text?
Russ
Yes, in both cases. Even if I hadn't, I would still have expected to see the date I filled in the citation details field, but that isn't showing up in the end note either.
ReplyDeleteYvette,
DeleteWhat Fact did you Cite? Is that Fact in the Items to Include?
Russ
Hi Russ,
ReplyDeleteI think I've found a bug. It turns out there was a strange character in the citation text (a curly ' from Word) that FTM apparently had a problem with. As soon as I replaced it with a normal quote, both citations acted the same: only the source shows up in the end note, not the citation details or text.
I think that is very strange. I specifically chose to check the box to include the citation text in the reference note. I would expect the citation details and citation text to display in the notes. Perhaps the Abstract Online isn't a good fit after all.
Thanks for urging me to check out the notes before going all out with this new strategy. I'm back to the drawing board...
I'll be away from my computer for a couple of days so it may be a while before I comment again, but I'll get back to you later!
Yvette,
DeleteQuestion: WHERE did you type that information? It looks / sounds like you have this transcription in MS Word.
Please do NOT do that directly. MS Word puts "stuff" / code into the text when you Copy/Paste.
PLEASE Copy that information from MS Word, Paste it into Notepad.exe. Then select all, in Notepad, Copy, NOW paste into FTM2012.
Russ
I just had to try one more thing. I reverted both sources to the default template and ran the report again. The endnotes now show up as I want and include the citation information. I think it is very strange that the citation details and text doesn't show up in endnotes for the "Abract online" template. I don't know if it's a bug or a feature, but it's not showing the notes the way I want so I'll stay clear from that template from now on.
ReplyDeleteYvette,
DeletePlease Copy/Paste what is in the Citation Details box, another Copy/Paste of the Citation Text, AND Copy/Paste the Reference Note for the Template format.
Thank you,
Russ
Citation details:
ReplyDelete1 mei 1669
Citation text:
Van Warner, Scholte te Bockel, de anno 1669 den 1en maij ter somma van 50 daller, segge vijftig daller, en is daervan noijt eenige interesse betaelt, moet derhalven tot betalinge en 't geven van een gerichtelijke verschrijvinge worden geconstringeert.
Endnote with Abract Online template:
1 ADW-werkgroep paleografie, compiler, "Provisorieboek NH-gemeente Aalten",
Endnote with Default template:
1 ADW-werkgroep paleografie, Provisorieboek NH-gemeente Aalten, Ecal.nu, http://www.ecal.nu, 1 mei 1669. Van Warner, Scholte te Bockel, de anno 1669 den 1en maij ter somma van 50 daller, segge vijftig daller, en is daervan noijt eenige interesse betaelt, moet derhalven tot betalinge en 't geven van een gerichtelijke verschrijvinge worden geconstringeert.
I much prefer the second endnote as it not only shows the citation details but also clarifies that the source I use is available online (I entered the website where the transcription is published as the repository).
Oops, forgot to include the reference notes. And as you probably suspected, that's where the problem was.
ReplyDeleteIt now turns out my reference notes got manual changes while I thought I had reset them. That probably explains it. When I reset them again and made sure the checkbox to include citation details was checked, both the reference note and the endnote appear as I expect when using the Abstract Online template. It now includes both the citation details and the citation text.
ADW-werkgroep paleografie, compiler, "Provisorieboek NH-gemeente Aalten", (http://www.ecal.nu), 1 mei 1669. Van Warner, Scholte te Bockel, de anno 1669 den 1en maij ter somma van 50 daller, segge vijftig daller, en is daervan noijt eenige interesse betaelt, moet derhalven tot betalinge en 't geven van een gerichtelijke verschrijvinge worden geconstringeert.
Thank you so much for your patience in helping me figure out what the problem is!
Yvette,
DeleteSo, do you see what comes from the Template Screen, what comes from the Citation Details, and what comes from the Citation Text, that goes into creating the Reference Note.
Again, Please check what your EndNotes look like, and is that where you want this information to show up.
Russ
Yes, I checked what the citation looks like in an endnote and it now includes all the details I want there.
ReplyDeleteI'm very happy to have found a strategy that allows me to stretch one transcription to multiple people. Some of these can be quite long (several pages is no exception) and it's great that it now only shows up once per report instead of once for each ancestor in the transcription.
When I get back to my computer I'll experiment some more using different types of transcribed records to see how well it works then.
Yvette,
DeletePlease remember that with that information in a Citation, it will appear each time that citation is used across the report. So, if there are several Facts for several people, the citation details will be repeated, as long as there is another Citation between uses of that citation. That is why I stress looking at your reports with EndNotes.
Yes, you only type it once, but it may be repeated in a report.
Russ
Ah, I didn't know that. I'll play with it some more. I wish there was an option in the report whether or not to include the citation text in the endnotes. That way you could choose at the time you're printing a report whether to include no sieves, terse sources or full sources including citation text.
ReplyDeleteIn my old genealogy program, I hardly ever published reports because I didn't need them. since I publish my entire database online people can find whatever they want without me having to send them a report. And for myself I much prefer waking though the tree to reading a linear representation of such a dynamic structure. but I really like reading how you're using reports to help with your research, like for the 1940 census, so I think I'll use reports more from now on.
Yvette,
DeleteThere IS the option, on the Citation Screen. Remove the Check Mark, run the report, with EndNotes, then put the Check Mark back into that box.
The good news about what you have done, it exactly what the Online Database will look like when others see your tree AND want to look at the Citation. They WILL see the transcription for anyone that has that citation.
That is why some of the questions are not easy to answer. You hadn't mentioned the online aspect before, which is OK, but now, YOU should take a look to see what the Citation looks like, in your Ancestry Member Tree.
Russ
Hi Russ,
ReplyDeleteI'm back from my short holiday so I can use my computer again.
I publish my database online in two ways: one is the Ancestry Member Trees, the other is on my own Dutch genealogy website (using a GEDCOM export that is imported into TheNextGeneration, online genealogy software I run at my webserver). That way, my database is available for people who do not have an Ancestry.com membership as well.
I've checked the citation on the AMT and it looks great. See Warner Oenck in my tree.
I've also done a test export to my online family tree and the citations look great there as well. So I guess I've found my new strategy!
About including the citation text into the endnotes:
Removing the check box from the citation screen is not the option I'm looking for. For some reports, there are thousands of citations. I do not want to manually have to go through all the citations in order to format them the way I like. I would like to be able to decide at the moment I create the report whether to have short end notes (without the citation text) or longer (with the citation text).
For example, if I publish my ahnentafel, including the citation text will make the report hundreds or even thousands of pages longer then just publishing the sources. Having that much detail on all the thousands of people in the report may not be that necessary. But if I run a family group sheet, including the citation text would be great because it would give details about that family that I would like to see there.
As far as I can tell, you can only chose whether to include sources or not, and not the amount of detail within a source. The option whether or not to include citation details into a report is one of my wishes for a next version of FTM.
Yvette,
DeleteWelcome back.
FYI - the Ancestry Member Tree is FREE. Anyone can access them. NOT part of any subscription.
You are right. You can only control IF CITATIONS will be included in a report.
A Citation is made up of three pieces of information. 1) Some information about the Source, 2) The Citation Detail, and 3) The Citation Text. Those three items make up the Reference Notes, which will become EndNotes. You DO have control over the #3, Citation Text, whether or not the Citation Text will be included in the Reference Notes.
As to your wish for the next version (The option whether or not to include citation details into a report). You have that today. Not including EndHotes in your reports, is already there. Without the Citation Detail, you would have nothing left.
Remember that what #1 and #2 are providing is the Document that you found your information, and Where in the Document you found it. For example, The name of a Book, and the Page in the Book. That would be what makes up the EndNote, without the Check Mark for Citation Text. The Citation Text allow you to go into more details.
IF you bring up a New Citation screen, Look at the "gray" text, in that window, before you type information into it. It's suggesting what you enter into those two fields.
Again, think about the output and what you want to show the reader of that document. I am not sure that any of my family would ever read my EndNotes. They don't really care. So, I would provide a Report and a Bibliography. Normally, to do that, I would create a small book that included the Report, without EndNotes, and the Bibliography.
Because you are putting your information Online, the EndNotes are not important, because the Sources and Citations are with the Fact that is being shown.
But, do what ever works for you. I try to keep my Citations, short and sweet. I put the Details, in the Notes for the individuals, or in some castes, Fact Notes, and include Fact Notes in the report.
Russ
Hi Russ,
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, Ancestry Member Trees used to be free, but now require an Ancestry.com subscription or an invite to be accessible. For example: if I log out of Ancestry.com and then try to follow the link to Wander Oenck, I get served with a page that asks me to subscribe instead of the person page.
I made a mistake in my last sentence: my wish is for an option whether or not to include citation *text* in the report. But I may be one of the few people who would want to include the citation text in some reports and not in others, so I guess this won't be high on FTM's list of priorities.
Yvette,
DeleteNo AMT are Free, NO Subscription required. Only a Username / Password, which is FREE.
When you click on that Link, you do NOT have to Subscribe, only Log In. If you don't have an Ancestry online account (don't confuse that with a subscription), you create one, with a Username and Password.
Once you have a Username / Password, AMTs are there. If you go to that link, and have an account, just log in. AMTs are FREE.
I understand the option for Citation Test. What has worked for me, in this specific area, is that when I create the Citation, I make that choice. For example, when you do the Transcription, at the link in your previous comment, I would INCLUDE the Check Mark in the Citation Text, because there is more information there. If there isn't a transcrption, no check mark. Having that as an option when generating a report, you might still have to review each Citation to include or not include the Citation Text. I just make that choice when I create it. I ask myself, Do I want THIS specific information in my EndNotes?
Russ
Thanks for clarifying that you don't need a subscription to view AMT. However, requiring a username and password is still too big a threshold for me. Many of my potential visitors are Dutch and don't feel comfortable with subscribing to a foreign website. I don't want to scare any people off.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I want my trees to be accessible in Google because that is how most of my potential visitors search. I have two goals in putting my information online: one is to provide information to as wide an audience as possible, and the other is to get in touch with people that have information that is useful to me. Since my ancestors are almost exclusively Dutch, the people who are most likely to have information for me are Dutch as well.
Just last month, I was contacted by a second cousin once removed who I had never heard off. She sent me several pictures of my great-great-grandmother whom I had never seen a picture of. She's not a genealogist herself and would never have found my information if my information wasn't available in Google (she Googled her mother's name just for fun) or if it required a creating a free account. I don't want to miss out on contacts like hers, so I guess I'm stuck with the extra website.
Your tip about deciding about the end notes when creating the citation is a good one, I'll keep that in mind. I'm now going to play some more with different types of records to see how my new strategy works out in these cases.
Yvette,
DeleteUnderstood.
Have you thought about using or creating a Blog?
I have online trees, and have found many "new" cousins over the years. But, Blogs are cousin bait. Within 1/2 hour, of one blog post, I had 2 new cousins.
Good luck,
Russ
Hi Russ,
DeleteI have had a website for almost 20 years, Yvette's Dutch Genealogy Homepage. I started a blog section in 2005 but haven't been actively blogging for a while now. I have been thinking about starting again, and focusing more on specific people in my tree that I've been working on rather than giving general advise on Dutch genealogy as I have been. Thanks for the inspiration!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYvette,
DeleteI think that IF you try it, you will NOT have to create a subscription.
Perhaps, you may want to talk to Ancestry about this issue. I am just a User of the Family Tree Maker program, trying to share my experience with the program.
Russ
[sorry about deleting my previous comment, I made a confusing typo (FTM instead of AMT) and decided to resubmit. ]
DeleteI have tried to access the AMT without being logged in and the only options that I'm presented with are subscription plans. I will ask them what is going on, thx.
I just checked the screen you get when you try to access a AMT without being logged in. It does seem to require you to subscribe. I quote:
ReplyDelete"Explore the record match you just found – and much more – FREE for 14 days.
Choose a membership to try. There’s no risk – you’ll only be billed if you decide to keep your membership after your free trial."
Even for the free trial, you need to give your credit card details. Many people in the Netherlands don't have credit cards and even if they do, they are not comfortable using their credit card online, especially on a foreign website where they aren't certain how easy it will be to contact the website to cancel the subscription. A toll-free number isn't free if you're calling from the Netherlands...
Perhaps there is another way of creating an Ancestry account without subscribing, but it isn't obvious from the page the visitors will land on.